17th December | | |
Florida swingers club shut down by morality police
| See
article from
tampabay.com
|
Hillsborough County sheriff's detectives say they shut down a swingers club in a Seffner rental house and arrested four people. Complaints from neighbors about the home resulted in a six-week investigation by police and the state Division of
Alcoholic Beverages and Tobacco. Neighbors said cars would turn up their dead-end street on weekend evenings and head directly for the very end, pulling into the 150-foot driveway lit with tiki torches behind the white picket fence and gate. The
unassuming two-story white house has red trim and sits well off a street lined with single-story ranch homes. Inside, policemen found three bedrooms lined wall to wall with beds. The living room was equipped with a dancing pole, a spanking table
and large-screen televisions playing pornographic movies. Four people have been charged with operating a sexually oriented business without a license and operating a bottle club without proper zoning and licensing. All four were released on bail.
Policemen said they witnessed various numbers of people inside the house and saw as many as 50 people inside at one time. Couples were allowed into the club free, and single men and women were charged various fees to enter. Anyone entering was
allowed to bring their own bottle of alcohol and could share with others.
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17th November | | |
|
Newly transgendered woman in topless protest at refused official recognition of her new gender, was arrested for indecent exposure of female breasts, and sent to male prison See
article from janefae.wordpress.com |
13th November | | |
New swingers club launches in Stoke
| See
article from thisisstaffordshire.co.uk
|
A former city centre nightspot has been transformed into the swingers' club called Adventures in Lust. The club opened at the weekend with more than 400 people signing up during its first two nights. The club boasts a number of private and
open play rooms along with a disco area. Husband and wife Ed and Maureen Watt, from Hanley, who previously ran the Club Atlantis swingers' club in Burslem, say the venue could be almost doubled in size if successful. The couple believe the
stigma surrounding swingers' clubs is beginning to lift. Maureen said: It's a lot more mainstream than it once was. We have people here aged between 20 and 60. The venue will initially open on Fridays and Saturdays from 10pm until 3am. Solo
females will be charged £ 5 on a Friday night compared with £ 30 for men. Single men are not permitted on a Saturday. Couples who arrive and leave together pay
£ 15 on a Friday and £ 25 on a Saturday.
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4th November | | |
New swingers club launches in Wiltshire
| See article from
wiltshiretimes.co.uk
|
A new swingers club has opened in Melksham, Wiltshire. The members only alternative lifestyle club at the Avon Enterprise Park in New Broughton Road launched in a former warehouse and will be open to singles and couples on Friday and
Saturday nights. The club's website boasts that it is the hottest and most erotic night out in the south west , adding: We have four playrooms, a sexy dark tunnel and a large chill out lounge. Angels aims to be a relaxed club where you
can socialise with open-minded adults. Or more if you wish. The club will open between 9pm-4.30am, and is aimed at over-25s with a bring-your-own alcohol policy. Single women get in free, single men pay £ 30
and couples pay £ 20. Acting Sgt Kane Fulbrook Smith, of Melksham Neighbourhood Policing Team, said: I've spoken to the owners. They're not breaking any criminal laws and
they're certainly not breaking any licensing laws. Every member of the public has a right to a private life. They are consenting adults and if they want to take part in this sort of activity then they can.
Update: No Objections
24th February 2012. See article from
thisiswiltshire.co.uk Angels swingers club in Melksham that applied for a retrospective change of use to keep it in business has received no objection from Melksham
Town Council. Wiltshire Council received complaints that the designated use of the unit, for business or industry, was not compatible with the club's function. Co-owner Steve Rumens, of Melksham, has submitted a retrospective application to
change the use to sui generis , a Latin phrase meaning of its own kind , allowing it to continue as a private members' club. Melksham Town Council's planning committee chairman Cllr Vic Oakman said: We passed it with no objection
on planning grounds. We've had no objections from any of the businesses down there, either written or verbal, and as far as we're concerned on planning grounds we can't object to it. The unit was empty for two years before they moved in, and it puts it
to use. Melksham police have not had any reports of crime or disorder linked to the premises. Update: Permission Granted 23rd March 2012. See
article from thisiswiltshire.co.uk
Angels can now stay open after Wiltshire Council granted retrospective planning permission. Wiltshire Council received nutter complaints that the original designated use of the unit, for business or industry, was not compatible with the club's
business. This forced the co-owner, Steve Rumens, to submit a retrospective application for the club to be listed as sui generis, a Latin phrase meaning of its own kind . Planning officers at Wiltshire Council granted the application, and
the venue will now be listed as a private members club. The application received no objections from Melksham Town Council when it came before the authority's planning committee and Wiltshire Council received no letters objecting.
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7th October | | |
Court challenge to New Jersey anti nudity law fails
| See article from
drbottger.com
|
A New Jersey court case involved a woman who was staging an explicit protest designed to restore the right for a woman to go topless at a historically nude beach. The relatively secluded beach near the Delaware border was traditionally topless
until the passage and enforcement of an ordinance by a nearby municipality, which banned persons from appearing in a state of nudity or in an indecent or lewd dress or garment, or to make any indecent or unnecessary exposure of his or her person.
The woman and her husband were both on the beach wearing swimsuit bottoms but no tops. The woman was cited and fined $500. Her husband was not. The woman appealed the citation on the basis of four arguments:
- The ordinance was unconstitutionally vague (What is nudity? What is indecent?)
- The ordinance denies equal protection under the Fourteenth Amendment (Why are only women's breasts indecent?)
- The ordinance denies equal protection under
the New Jersey State Constitution (Does the public's interest in covering my breasts really outweigh my right to uncover them?)
- The beach's historical tradition as a nude sunbathing site should be protected under the public trust doctrine. (If the beaches belong to all of us, we should be free to enjoy them as we choose.)
The New Jersey Superior Court denied the appeal on all four grounds. Of particular interest is the Court's rationale in denying points 2 and 3. In denying that the ordinance violated the Equal Protection Clause, the Court invoked the
important governmental interest in safeguarding the public's moral sensibilities, which in this case are based on an indisputable difference between the sexes and the fact that society considered females baring their breasts in public . . .
as unpalatable. With respect to equal protection under the State Constitution, the Court found that a woman's right to appear topless in public is not central to the ordinary person's life enjoyment or liberty, and is outweighed by they
government's legitimate need to protect the public from unwelcome exposure to nudity.
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29th September | | |
Berlin is the fun capital of Europe
| See article from haaretz.com
|
How did the German capital become Europe's sex tourism mecca for gays and straights alike? A tour of underground clubs, dark rooms, bathhouses. Insomnia To gain entry to the erotic club called Insomnia on
Alt-Tempelhof Street, you ring the bell and hope the door opens. After you pass the test and shed any extraneous clothing in the locker room, you enter a square space that is painted red. And there you find people dancing, nice music and a laser-light
show. Most of the men are dressed. Most of the women are a bit scantily clad. On Sundays, mass orgies are held here, and the price of admission varies: 80 euros for a man, 40 for a couple and no charge for women. But for the regular Saturday bash,
admission is 17 euros across the board. Things seem a little dull, but when I go to order a drink at the bar, I notice that a man's head is planted between the legs of the panty-less girl beside me. Massive curtains hide several
dark spaces, where there are beds and a Jacuzzi for naked bathing, plus showers for before and after. On the other side is a corridor with pictures of naked women lit with ultraviolet light and huge sculptures of female
genitalia. In the corridor, a woman in a leather suit with her breasts exposed lies in a hammock. Her legs are held by chains and someone is performing a sex act on her before a curious audience of five men and two women. A middle-aged midget goes up to
the upper level, holding two leather leashes attached to the neck of a tall and slender young woman who walks ahead of him. Entry into this level is restricted to couples. Kitkat Kitkat is Insomnia's
kinkier and more famous cousin. Sitting at the entrance to this club is Kirstin, who runs the place with her husband Thur. She oversees the selection process. Anyone who shows up in simple jeans and a T-shirt will remain outside. There are two dance floors, both with oppressively loud techno music. A few young women are dancing in just their panties and bras. A naked couple is making out on the couch. Here, too, you find a big age range: a couple of Russian youths in army trousers and berets, shirtless, alongside 60-somethings sitting naked on armchairs. Some are playing with themselves, one is asleep. A man in a leather dress puts his hand on the crotch of a woman in high stiletto heels, who is kissing another man. On the walls are neon-hued paintings of men with enlarged penises and of naked women.
At Kitkat you can do anything, as long as it's consensual. It's the sex community center, says Dr. Gadi Taub, 46, a senior lecturer in communications and p ublic policy from the Hebrew University of Jerusalem.
Good-looking men and women, ugly men and women, gays, straights, old people, young people - it's wonderfully democratic. You go in there for the first time and you think you're dreaming. They don't need bouncers to toss people out
because people respect one another, in keeping with the rules of the place: You can try anything and touch anyone - it's the local parallel to 'What's going on?' - but if he moves away from you, you don't go after him. Berghain
At 3 A.M., I head over to Berghain, the city's most famous techno club. Top DJs, music that's a feast for the ears, thumping bass that really gets inside you. But it's just as famous for the long line at the entrance, the tough
selection, and the fact that what happens on the dance floor, in the bathrooms and in the dark rooms is just as exciting as the music. In one room on the first floor, aside from the amazing sound, everything is more intense - especially at peak hours
when it fills with gay men engaged in solo, couple or group sex and it's hard to move around without bumping into a bare chest or buttock. On the ground floor you can also find straight couples fucking. Not everyone bothers to hide; right on the dance
floor there are couples and threesomes going at it in advanced stages. For the last decade or so, the Berghain has been operating out of a power station located on the edge of the Friedrichshain-Kreuzberg quarter. The proprietors
are also the owners of Lab.Oratory and at certain parties during the year (for New Year's and Easter ), the connecting door between the two spaces is opened. Then the last days of Pompeii are likely to pale in comparison. But my German friend still isn't
that impressed. That's the difference between locals and tourists, he says. The locals are used to it all, the tourists are keen to go back home with a souvenir. Some buy a postcard, others tell everyone how they saw
people fucking at the Berghain club. ...Read the full article
|
27th September | | |
Scotland adds up the bill for being easily offended by the Naked Rambler
| From thescottishsun.co.uk
|
Scotland's easy offence at the Naked Rambler has cost tax payers £500,000 Stephen Gough has been behind bars almost continually for six years for refusing to wear clothes either in public, in court
or in prison. And it looks as though the bill for keeping him will continue to rise because every time he is freed, he is arrested again for going starkers. In all, he has been convicted of 17 breaches of the peace for walking naked since he first
hit the headlines in 2003 as he walked from Land's End to John O'Groats naked. Gough is currently serving his longest sentence of 657 days, imposed at Perth Sheriff Court last month. Sheriff Richard McFarlane has claimed this outrageous
injustice is not the fault of the authorities, but that it was all down to Gough. He said: Can you help me as to when this ridiculous cycle of offending will stop? A lot of deserving causes could benefit from the unnecessary cost you are putting the
country to. Your conduct is verging on selfish because of the costs. It costs around £ 35,000 a year to keep the average prisoner but Gough spends most of his time behind bars in segregation, which is
more expensive. The total bill is also made up of legal aid, court bills and wasted police time. Matthew Elliott, chief executive of the TaxPayers' Alliance said: It's unbelievable that this ongoing case has been allowed to waste so much
taxpayers' money. A sensible resolution has to be found, sending the naked rambler back to prison benefits no one.
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19th September | | |
New Jersey woman fails in appeal against a prosecution for revealing her breasts on a beach
| See
article from business.avn.com
|
Two appeal judges of the Superior Court of New Jersey have affirmed the conviction of Phoenix Feeley, an artist and free speech activist, for having exposed her breasts on a beach in Spring Lake, N.J., and for later removing the t-shirt provided to her
by police and again going bare-chested at an intersection near the police station. She was fined $750 for the two incidents. Although a 1992 New York Appeals Court decision declared that since men had the right to go topless in any public venue in
the state, women had the same right, Feeley was nonetheless arrested in 2005 for opening the top of her painter's jumpsuit and letting her breasts hang out on Delancey Street in downtown Manhattan at 1:30 a.m., and held in custody for 12 hours before
being released uncharged. She claimed in a lawsuit against the city that she had been pulled from a police car by her hair, forced to undergo a psychiatric evaluation at Bellevue Hospital, and that the cops refused to help her repair her now-damaged
jumpsuit. The city agreed to settle the case for $29,000. So Feeley may have assumed she'd have no similar problem in Spring Lake, which is located just 40 miles south of Manhattan, but apparently the area, though just five miles from the resort
town of Asbury Park, is actually a hotbed of conservatism. Hence her conviction in Superior Court of two counts of public nudity and one of obstruction .
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16th September | | |
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Tragedy in Italy when Shibari bondage goes wrong See article from thedailybeast.com
|
7th September | | |
Topless protest at newspaper censorship policy
| See article from
ottawasun.com
|
A topless woman's protest at the Ottawa Sun caught local's attention. The reason for her topless parade was to protest against the photo policy of the Ottawa Sun. The paper's policy is to cover the nipples of topless women appearing in photos. Spero claimed it is unfair that a pull-out section of the Sun in one of those editions featured a photo of a topless man, whose nipples are clearly visible.
She said she also has sent angry messages to columnist Earl McRae who referred to breasts as bazongas in a column. I thought the Sun was about news, but this is incredibly offensive, she said. |
17th August | | |
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Is belief in BDSM protected by anti-discrimination law? See article from guardian.co.uk |
11th August | | |
New UK magazine exploring kink, fetish, swinging and dogging
| From xdpublications.co.uk
|
There's a new edition to the range of magazines from XD Publications. The Little Back Book is described by the publishers as: an adult magazine that walks a dangerous tightrope between high-class sophistication and downright
filth. First published in June 2011, The Little Back Book is a 100-page, A5, glossy publication that explores kinks, fetishes, swinging, dogging, spanking, cross-dressing, role-play and sex toys, as well as treating its readers to lots
of very sexy (and very naughty) pictures of British girls.
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14th May | | |
Complaints about nudist neighbour who lives 150 meters away
| See article from
theregister.co.uk
|
A 62-year-old Gloucestershire back garden naturist was arrested for indecent exposure and now faces three charges of outraging public decency. Donald Sprigg was hauled before Cheltenham Magistrates Court accused of causing his Cirencester
neighbours harassment, alarm or distress , the Daily Mail reports. Sprigg denied the charges, while his solicitor Mohammed Iqbal insisted that the neighbours who'd protested actually lived 150 metres away and had captured the allegedly
indecent horticultural action from their balcony using a long-distance lens . Sprigg was bailed to stand trial on 20 June. ?
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12th May | | |
Barcelona's image damaged by a bikini ban
| See article from
metro.co.uk
|
Barcelona officials have passed a law banning nudity and what they described as near nudity in the city centre, with anyone ignoring the regulations risking a fine. Concerns had been expressed that too many locals and tourists were unable to
distinguish where the beaches ended and the city started. Lawmakers and tourism bosses were worried Barcelona's image was being damaged by the number of people walking straight off the sand and into residential and historic areas without bothering
to adjust their dress. Signs were erected in coastal areas of Barcelona earlier this year, asking people to cover up when they left the beaches, but the message did not appear to get through. Legislation has now been passed that will allow
the police to fine anyone spotted on the streets in a bikini, swimsuit or trunks up to EUR300 ( £ 265). The new law also includes provision for fines of up to EUR500 for anyone who is found to be
completely naked in public anywhere in the city other than its nudist beach, after a number of incidents of people walking or cycling through the streets without a stitch of clothing on.
|
2nd May | | |
LibDem council candidate with flair for fun and deviant art
| See
article from
dailymail.co.uk
|
A Liberal Democrat local election candidate has caused a stir after she posed in fetish gear in provocative pictures which she then posted on the internet. The semi-naked photographs of Holly-Ann Battye, which show her lying on her back with a
ball gag in her mouth and cupping her breasts, appeared this week on the website DeviantArt, under the user name HollyTheWolly. Other Gothic-themed shots of the candidate for the South Northants Council ward of Cosgrove and Grafton, are captioned
I kill , Voodoo and Make It Bleed . Battye has defended the images as her artwork: My artwork has nothing to do with this campaign but this slur has everything to do with the Tories feeling threatened. Jane
Hollis, chairman of the South Northants Lib Dems who is standing in the Castle ward in Northampton, stood by her candidate: At the end of the day she is an artist and she sells images as a business, she said: She is young and what I want to see
is a refreshing change to all the elderly Tories sat on the SNC council.'
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10th April | | |
Swingers club gets caught up in lap dancing licence fee hike
| See article from
thestar.co.uk
|
Sex entertainment venues in Sheffield are angry about planned new charges and conditions set to be imposed by the council. Marie Calvert, who runs Attercliffe Road swingers' club La Chambre with husband Barry, has branded as a stealth tax new licence charges of
£ 1,335 per venue, annual renewal fees of £ 1,000, and levies of £ 1,000 to vary licences or
£ 500 to transfer them. The charges are part of Sheffield Council's new Sexual Entertainment Venues licensing policy, created after the Government gave councils powers to regulate venues. Marie said:
For us it is a very worrying development. We cannot be compared to lap dancing clubs or indeed any other kind of sexual venue in that we do not offer sexual entertainment to our customers - they themselves consent to any fun they
wish to have. We have been open for almost 13 years and have had no problems at all, in fact our customers arrive and leave as quietly as they can. We also fill the local hotels at weekends. To be told we will have yet
another expense is disheartening. This is yet another stealth tax from the Government but I suppose we will have no choice but to comply.
Julian Skeens, lawyer for Spearmint Rhino which has a lap dancing club on Brown Street,
criticised a clause allowing advertising within 440 yards of a venue with council permission - but forbidding advertising elsewhere in the city: This would appear to be a severe restraint on trade as it would cover magazine and newspaper adverts, even
within a national publication. And Scores lap dancing club on Charter Square said whilst the council's fees were acceptable , conditions such as a requirement to have a register containing personal details of staff, and a signing-in
book for workers open for inspection by police and council officials, appear to propagate a fictional and untrue image of the industry as a criminal and dishonest business . Update: Licensed 3rd March 2012.
See article from thestar.co.uk Sheffield
Councillors granted a new licences for La Chambre swingers club in Attercliffe. There were no objections to the application.
|
8th February | | |
Nutters whinge at Stockport bondage club
| Based on
article from
menmedia.co.uk See also slave-academy.co.uk
|
The Rifle Volunteer in Stockport has been converted to a thriving fetish establishment which boasts on the internet of offering mistress worship , punishments and the finest dominatrix in Manchester . Neighbours are
predictably demanding the club be closed. But the council say that the change to bondage club did not need planning permission. Police have also visited the premises and say there is no evidence of any illegal activity. Katie Stringer who
lives on the street, whinged: I don't like something like that in the neighbourhood and it's not something you want at the end of your road. It would be good to see it closed. Labour councillor Philip Harding said: Considering this site
is close to houses and the road is used by schoolchildren one would have considered this to be a totally unsuitable place to have such an establishment. The pub closed in 2000 and is now home to The Slave Academy. Mistress Valeska, one of the
women who works there, told the M.E.N: This is a fetish academy and there is no sex involved. A leaked letter from senior council planning officer Dave Westhead confirmed bondage clubs did not fall into any official planning category meant
there was no automatic requirement to seek planning permission. The only relevant question, he said, were whether it had caused an increase in noise or traffic -- but not people's perception of the morality of particular use . The council is
satisfied that the current use of the premises does not have an adverse effect on the amenity of the local area.
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7th February | | |
Canadian on trial for public nudity challenges the constitutionality of the law
| See
article from canada.com
|
Canadian laws prohibiting public nudity are an infringement of constitutional rights, an Ontario court heard. Prominent defence lawyer Clayton Ruby argued that current laws in Canada prohibiting nudity in public places, or on private property
exposed to public view, are overly broad --- thus they should be struck down and the laws under the Criminal Code updated. According to the Federation of Canadian Nudists, these laws are archaic because they define nudity as generally indecent
and intended to cause harm to those who witness it. The challenge is being launched on behalf of Ruby's client, Brian Coldin, a nudist resort operator in Bracebridge, Ontario. Coldin, who has been arrested numerous times over the years
for public nudity. The criminal trial, which began last fall, heard testimony from one of the workers at the fast-food burger restaurant who cried on the stand when she described how Coldin and two others drove up to the pickup window completely
nude. Ruby had argued Coldin wasn't completely nude in the incidents and was at the very least --- wearing sandals. He also argued that the self-proclaimed Christian nudist's behaviour was not done in an prurient or indecent manner. The decision about the constitutional challenge will be made in writing at a later date.
Update: Day in Court 18th July 2011. See article from
huffingtonpost.ca A man who is challenging the constitutionality of Canada's nudity laws received a boost Tuesday from a handful of naturists who descended on the small
town in Ontario's cottage country where his lawyers were making arguments. Lawyers for Brian Coldin spent the day trying to convince an Ontario court judge that it should no longer be a criminal offence to be naked in public. About six
self-described naturists were in the courtroom to support him. The judge will rule on the constitutionality of Canada's nudity laws and whether Coldin is guilty at the same time. The case is now adjourned until Sept. 28, when the judge is expected
to set a date for his final decision.
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2nd February | | |
Warrington Council sees new lap dancing restrictions as a way to ban swingers and fetish clubs
| See article from
warringtonguardian.co.uk
|
Warrington Council is consulting on its policy towards lap dancing and Sex Entertainment venues. This exercise seems to have been prompted by the newspaper exposé of a fetish/swingers club at nearby Orford Farm. Poulton North Clr
Colin Oliver was present at the licensing committee meeting during which the new policy was discussed. He said: What the farm in Orford has shown us is that we've got nothing in place to stop that sort of thing.
Finding out about that club was such a surprise and we couldn't do anything about it. A new policy will give restrictions on how sex establishments can be set up, what hours they can open and who can go there. This is a way of putting people off
setting up those kinds of premises, and to make it safer for the community.
Oliver believes that making the policy at an earlier date could have prevented the fetish club from opening. It is perhaps a bit worrying
that councils are thinking about using the new lap dancing restrictions to target fetish and swingers clubs. The definitions in the new law are (1) In this Schedule sexual entertainment venue means any
premises at which relevant entertainment is provided before a live audience for the financial gain of the organiser or the entertainer. (2) In this paragraph relevant entertainment means—
(a) any live performance; or (b) any live display of nudity; which is of such a nature that, ignoring financial gain, it must reasonably be
assumed to be provided solely or principally for the purpose of sexually stimulating any member of the audience (whether by verbal or other means).
The whole concept of audience and performances doesn't apply to a
swingers or fetish club but that doesn't stop councils twisting it to suit their own mean minded ends. In the mean time the venue at Orford Farm has announced its closure, presumably in response to the council pressure, regardless of whether it is
bluff or not. Warrington's draft sex entertainment policy [doc] is open for public comment. e-mail
cexlicensing@ warrington.gov.uk by April 2011.
|
23rd January | | |
Tease II Hotel takes up where the swingers of Club Tease left off
| Based on article from
cambridge-news.co.uk
|
cambridge-news.co.uk reports that the swingers club closed down in Over has relocated to a renovated hotel in Alconbury. As there is no entertainment along the
lines of lap dancing or live sex entertainment then there is no need of a special licence. A hotel in Alconbury will be able to hold swingers sessions without the need for a special licence, a council spokesman has said. At the moment the hotel is
unlicensed and sells soft drinks only. The Tease II Hotel will offer party nights such as Swinging Cherries Party Nights at weekends as well as acting as a straightforward hotel during the week. Update: Swinging along
nicely 13th October 2011. Alconbury's swingers club is doing well and expanding it sessions with a Wednesday meet to supplement the usual weekend opening. The club has now got an alcohol licence and is installing a Jacuzzi.
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16th January | |
| Nutters get wound up by dungeon that nobody ever noticed
| See article from
leaderlive.co.uk
|
Police are looking into complaints about a dominatrix-style dungeon near Wrexham Nutter fears about the dungeon, which offers clients the services of a mistress without any sexual contact, were sparked by postings on Facebook rather than
anything actually being spotted in the locale. 'Concerned' parents say they believe the premises are actually in Chirk. One mother, who has a children at school there said: The place has been mentioned on Facebook over the weekend and there has
been a lot of concern about it among the parents. What is very worrying is the fact that this place is very close to the schools and you could have weirdos going in and out. I don't think what they are doing there is illegal and if it was in a remote
place it wouldn't be so bad, but it's very close to these schools. A spokesman for North Wales Police said: We are aware of local concerns and are looking into the situation. One of the websites associated with the dungeon is no
longer accessible and carried the message: Dungeon rental is no longer available . A blog accessible through another of the websites, in the name of Miss Roxy, says: I am no longer sessioning in My Chambers in North Wales. I have been
receiving a number of ludicrous emails and would like to take this opportunity to reiterate, for those that live in ignorance ... I do not provide a sexual service of any kind. She puts it rather well on her website: I Do NOT offer
any kind of sexual service, so Do NOT dare ask!
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